We don't want a sweet, nice, shy guy 1068

Selena, I've had enough of women like you. You seem like a real smart ass to me. You don't disserve a sweet, nice, shy guy. I doubt that you’ll ever find a lasting relationship. No one will ever be able fulfill YOUR needs. I don't even want to be considered as your potential

>>grit his teeth from a small "teasing"<<,

I'm sure with a smart ass like you Selena it was more like emasculation.

>>We don't want a sweet, nice, shy guy.<<

I hear that so often from women. Guys also have a list of what we dislike about women.

>>I hear that so often from women.<<

And do you tune out the women who don't say stuff like this? Or are those types of women not hot enough?

Will -

With any good luck, Selena's new boyfriend will probably beat the crap out of her.

Real nice Tommy.

Anyway.....

http://www.big-big-truck.com/comics/sensitiveguy/sensitiveguy2.gif

So basically she's saying it's men's fault when women turn into bitches? Why can't they take responsibility for letting themselves turn into hairy Berthas? Your actions are your own doing. If men can't blame women for male dispositions, then women can't blame men for female dispositions either.

>>So basically she's saying it's men's fault when women turn into bitches?<<

Or like when men say that it's women's fault they are no longer "nice" guys?

It seems to me everyone is missing the point here. What see is trying to say is females look to see where your head is at and if it's up your ass or no where to be found she's not having anything to do with you. This does make sense. If a man doesn't have an ounce of intelligence, sense of where he is going, or what's going on around him she ain't messing with him. Doesn't matter if you are nice or not if your head ain't on straight. Hell I gotten numbers and even money just for conversation.

Did you even read what I posted DJ? Or are you just reverting to your monkey see monkey do routine again?

Chasen - yeah that seems to be the take home message. A person has to have something of substance to them, or it won't matter whether they're pleasant to be around or not.

well we know for sure is that Selena doesn’t want "a sweet, nice, shy guy"

"I'll tell you men, what I and I think most women are looking for...a woman's point of view:"

So I suppose she'speaking for the majority of women?

>>Or are you just reverting to your monkey see monkey do routine again? <<

If I did wouldn't I be going on and on about how I have never done anything to hurt anyone EVER and anytime a relationship goes wrong it was because I was too nice and someone took advantage of my niceness *rolls eyes*.

>>So I suppose she'speaking for the majority of women?<<

or is it that you want her to be speaking for most women?

Not sure if this topic was meant to sow discourse or meant to add value. But it seems things are going to denigrate to pettiness.

It's too bad we can't hear the inflection and tones in people's voices and have to rely on the written word and our own innate filtering mechanisms to try to figure out what the message is that is trying to be conveyed.

Selena was the one to make it a point that what she is offering is what she believes is the same attitudes shared by most women.

I perceive Dave's words to be a result of the postings and responses, where, let's face it, Selena isn't being challenged by other women on what she has said (but a valid question to this is "does she need to be challenged?"). Dave simply pointed this out in a rather sarcastic post stating "So I suppose she's speaking for the majority of women?"

And it is easy to understand why he posted it - because it has been said, repeatedly, by women posting on this site that other women who post don't speak for most women. Selena, by her own admission, was attempting to speak for most women. That's a rather pointed statement.

I believe Dave was justified in posting that because it does point out a very major argument Selena is making regarding the attitude of females - and that is "of most women."

Regular female contributors have repeatedly made comments to the contrary of what Selena is posting. So some of us aren't exactly fools when it comes to postings in the manner Selena is making (but then again, some of us just, indeed, might be fools). But there are infrequent visitors to these message-boards, and without the occassional counterpoint, especially to someone who proclaims to be trying to speak for most women, things can easily get misconstrued. I think Dave was trying to bring this out.

We don't need to get down to, yet another, he/she gender-war rhetoric.

It certainly is nice to read other points-of-view, even if it isn't exactly favorable.

It's like DJ has had to say a couple times by emphasizing that if what she says doesn't pertain to any of us, in particular, then we don't need to be bothered by it, the message wasn't intended for those it doesn't pertain to.

I think Dave nailed it when he responded that guys also have a list of likes and dislikes. That point is a great counterpoint for Selena, from the male-side of the equation.

I'd just like to read through the topic without having to relegate it to rhetoric through the same discussion that's been had ad-infinitum.

My take on the matter (and keep in mind this is solely based on Selena's written word) is that she wants someone to be a companion, first-and-foremost, and if she wants something more from the man, then he will need to be able to provide for her and her child in a manner that she is incapable of doing by herself. It's very much a selfish attitude with the focus solely on what she is going to get and so long as it is good, she deserves to have it.

Like I said, that is my take on the matter. I could be completely wrong on my take - but I only have those few sentences on which to base a reply.

Selena isn't being challenged by other women on what she has said (but a valid question to this is "does she need to be challenged?").

Selena is expressing her own opinion of "HER NEEDS" at this stage in her life. This is what SHE wants, i cant argue with someone expressing thier opinion. People go through certain stages, ie a guy will go thru the "gee i just want" sex with lottsa girls, before he decides he wants a "nice" sweet girl to settle down with, right? so maybe women go thru the same stages as well.

Unfortunately Kiki, your reply doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and I will explain why, perhaps you can elaborate further so as not to contribute to the confusion of the issue.

The point that Dave tried to make earlier (and I tried to illustrate, poorly however, given your response), and one that was espoused by Selena, really doesn't relate to your proclamation that she is expressing HER OWN OPINION.

Selena, states (makes it a point, rather) right in the beginning:

But I'll tell you men, what I and I think most women are looking for...

I agree that it is her opinion evident by the heavy use of the pronoun "I." So, in her opinion she is speaking for most women, or do you comprehend that sentence differently than I (and Dave) do? Your statement about not arguing with someone's opinion doesn't make sense when someone's opinion states that they are speaking for most women - that is no longer the sole domain of "HER OWN OPINION," that is now the domain of the opinion of most women. I'm not going to bother going into semantics about the opinion of the opinion of most women - that can be relegated to the realm of the people who have little to contribute to conversations.

Dave simply pointed out with his question:

So I suppose she's speaking for the majority of women?

Would Dave's question be invalid given Selena's opinion?

No way!

It's an entirely valid question of someone's opinion that is to be understood as being the opinion of most women.

So is Selena's opinion, indeed, the opinion of most women as she proclaims?

Regardless of the answer, my take on the matter remains unchanged given the opinions that have thus far been expressed in this topic.

Selena tells us that women don't want a sweet, nice, shy guy. She said ‘WE’ don't want a sweet, nice, shy guy. And she wants a guy who's making a decent living. Is that 50K or 100K per year? Hmmm? She tells men,”forget what's in your heart, that's us women.” I'm uncomfortable to think that all women might feel that way. Is there something I'm misunderstanding here. I'm I spinning her comments?

guys...

although Selena does not distinguish as to which group she is referring, she does state "WE" as in perhaps, her own friends, or crew. I admit women do look for different attributes at certain times. Im only stating that this is her opinion and not to be confused with the general consensus of all women, irregardless. I can only speak for myself, but i do prefer "nice" guys, who keep thier promises, doesnt cheat, or lie, however that is only MY opinion and not anyone elses. My point is that i would prefer someone i could curl up on the couch with.

"Forget whats in your heart, that's us women" perhaps if you look deeper, she only expressing her own fears...about intimacy or involvement...

again, i cant speak for her......its only my opinion.

>>My point is that i would prefer someone i could curl up on the couch with<<

thanks for that kiki :)

I think it causes much worryation when someone says "I'm speaking on behalf of my gender and we think (insert something bad here)". Maybe that's what happened here.

It's like if I said for example, "I think I and most guys would like our women in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant." Even though that would be me stating my opinion about my gender as a whole, I'm still kinda speaking on behalf of "most guys". It might not pertain actually to "most guys" in general but rather "most guys" that I interact with. But since she didn't say she was talking about just her and her homegirls...she said "most women".

Now when a guy says anything about "most women" we hear all kinds of objections and defensive statements, but there weren't too many objections when Selena spoke for "most women". So of course Dave wondered if she was speaking the truth.

A woman has a close male friend. This means that he is probably interested in her, which is why he hangs around so much. She sees him strictly as a friend. This always starts out with, you're a great guy, but I don't like you in that way. This is roughly the equivalent for the guy of going to a job interview and the company saying, You have a great resume, you have all the qualifications we are looking for, but we're not going to hire you. We will, however, use your resume as the basis for comparison for all other applicants. But, we're going to hire somebody who is far less qualified and is probably an alcoholic. And if he doesn't work out, we'll hire somebody else, but still not you. In fact, we will never hire you. But we will call you from time to time to complain about the person that we hired.

HopeLess

Hopeless -

Your response makes perfect sense.

>>A woman has a close male friend. This means that he is probably interested in her, which is why he hangs around so much<<

Who would want a conditional friend? "I'll be your friend if you eventually start a romantic relationship with me." Who would want that?

Hopeless did not say anything about the guy being a conditional friend DJ that is something you always throw in there whenever a male friend is mentioned. Guys don't always want to get with their female friends but when we do it seems we get labeled as having ulterior motives. However if women did the same thing it would be called something else, wouldn't it? Something harmless and benign, and the guy should "give her a chance" because she's a "nice girl" or something. Well it works the same way. At least the guy in the scenario is trying to be a friend first. Or would the women prefer all romance and no friendship? I don't know too many women who hang around a guy a hell of a lot like that unless he serves some purpose for her (she's using him) or she wants there to be something more between them than there already is. Or she may not quite know what she wants and she's on the fence weighing her options or something like that. In any case, same rationale applies: women are just as conditional.

Unfortunately the whole "lets be lovers and then we'll eventually grow into friends" idea rarely works. Most people find that they can't be friends later because the romantic relationship crashed and burned because (suprise) there was no real foundation for it in the first place (save for fleeting attraction which we all know is not stable). So although some people want the fairytale boy meets girl and sweeps her off her feet and they live happily ever after kind of romance thing to work out, putting the cart before the horse is a recipe for failure in practice. Just ask all the divorcees where things went wrong. When they finish blaming their ex they will eventually tell you that their foundation was shaky going into the relationship and it never solidified because their friendship was never really the focus....the unstable romance was.

Oh but hopeless romantics ignore this *obvious fact* that screams out at us, choosing instead to follow their heart (or is it their loins?).

So basically it seems women don't want a real friend who grows into something more, they want a lover right off the bat who grows into a friend. Is this the case? It's kind of ass backward, because if they were never your friend in the first place how can you expect them to be one later? You set yourself up to get too intimate, too up close and personal with someone who you don't even know whether you can trust like that. If they're not your friend then how do you know if they'll be loyal? If it's all about the romance and the feelings and they aren't loyal to you because the frienship hasn't really formed yet, then your sig. other is more likely to stray if they happen to be a bad person, aren't they? Oh but I forgot yall like em bad and naughty not good and nice. Well good luck with that!

>>Guys don't always want to get with their female friends but when we do it seems we get labeled as having ulterior motives. However if women did the same thing it would be called something else<<

If men didn't act like it was the end of the world when a woman just wanted to remain friends then maybe you wouldn't get labelled.

>>However if women did the same thing it would be called something else, wouldn't it? Something harmless and benign, and the guy should "give her a chance" because she's a "nice girl" or something. <<

And she'd move on if he just wanted to remain friends and not whine about how "nice girls finish last" or how "no man wants a nice girl". She's move on because.... do I need to quote Chris Rock again?

>>? I don't know too many women who hang around a guy a hell of a lot like that unless he serves some purpose for her<<

I'm starting to think you don't know too many women, period. I guess just being a good friend isn't one of those purposes, right?

Anyone who gets defensive about being "just friends" isn't a real friend. What if a woman has more than one male friend interested in her, she's supposed to chose one over the other? Ruin the friendship with the "rejected" guy and then run the risk of ruining the friendship with the other guy? And isn't there someone on here who is always saying "you can't remain friends with someone you are dumped by"?

I guess a lover can't simultaneously be a friend also, right?

I really don't think men in general think it's the end of the world. Maybe if it's a girl they really liked and it seemed like she liked them too then things flipped 180 or something. But hey life goes on and there are more fish in the sea. Nobody on this blog is considering putting a Smith and Wesson to their head over the shit so... whatever. It's understandable that people feel let down when someone they have fallen for doesn't feel the same way, and you can't say women don't feel the letdown when it happens to them. They too will ask "why not me?", ESPECIALLY if they were flirted/toyed with and began to believe there might be something mutual there. But do you see anybody scrutinizing THEM for feeling that way? Nope! Do they complain about so and so not being interested in them? Hell yeah! So go give them the same hard luck speech and tell them how to deal with it too.

However if most women have an aversion to being friends before being lovers this presents a direct practical problem as I stated above whether they want to admit it or not.

"I'm starting to think you don't know too many women, period. I guess just being a good friend isn't one of those purposes, right?"

Think what you want, but your statements about men leave me with the same impression about you. Women are about as much (or as little, however the case may be) into "being a good friend" merely for the sake of "being a good friend" as men are. You want to make women seem more altruistic and selfless but they *aren't*. I used to think they were too, but as the years went on I found out they can be as bad as they are always saying men are when it comes to this, ESPECIALLY when they walk around with a "justifed and entitled" complex.

Selfish people are never in your life simply for your benefit, they're all about what they can get out of being in your life and that's true on both sides of the fence. And unfortunately women are no less selfish than men are, it's time to dispell that myth finally.

And women are also at least just as likely to pretend to be "nice" and "your friend" just so they can get what they want from you (whatever that may be). So as wary of women are of "nice guys", men also need to be equally wary of "nice women".

"Anyone who gets defensive about being "just friends" isn't a real friend."

And anyone who wants a "more than a friend" relationship with you when they're not even really your friend to begin with is not likely to ever be your friend. They're probably just in it to get what they want out of it.

"I guess a lover can't simultaneously be a friend also, right?"

Did you catch my drift earlier? Yall commonly make it a catch 22! Don't want to get romantically involved with friends (someone you know you can get along with), but would rather get romantically involved with someone you don't consider a friend (and therefore don't know whether you can get along with them...but yet you feel the attraction so you "go with it")...thinking that the lover can become your friend in time??? Well I think we can all agree that is risky business. If they're not your friend from the start of the romantic involvement then you have no assurance that they will ever really be your friend although they will at least "act" the role while they are with you since they are supposedly your boo(but that's just bullshitting you). But if you're not friends first, then you have to ask where is the (real and unconditional) love? The love that keeps people honest? The love that keeps people loyal and faithful? If it's not there, then watch out! That romance will probably burn brightly for a time but will get snuffed out the fastest.

DJ -

A guy can't be friends with a girl who broke up with him because there is the certainty that she will hold this fact over his head for as long as the "friendship" lasts.

When a girl says "Let's be friends first", she most likely means that she's not attracted to the guy now and will never be attracted to him in the future.

When a girl says "Let's just be friends", she most likely means that she doesn't want to be the guy's friend at all.

I don't get sour if woman says she'd rather be friends. In fact I'd rather have a genuine friendship with her than nothing at all.

However, it would be nice if the women who say "let's just be friends" were actually interested in being friends for real, and that wasn't just something they told us to blow us off. Get it now DJ? If we caught feelings we caught feelings. It's not so much that they don't want to be our girl (boo hoo freakin hoo now where's the Jack Daniels?) but it's rubbing salt in the wounds that they're usually lying about whatever association they DO want to have with us. "Let's be friends" often means "I'll call you but only when I need a favor. But in the meantime I'll pity you because you like me but alas I don't feel the same way." :( That shit is not necessary.

Shit gets wierd after that. And when shit gets wierd we tend to get avoided because apparantly we're that guy who "likes her too much". So when we hear the "let's just be friends", often we know all too well what's coming next. Some measure of disrespect if we hang around, depending on what her inclinations are (some will milk the fact that you like them to the last drop). More BS and not even being taken seriously as a friend would be. Her friends will know in short order what happened and everything you said and she said and your reaction when she said it and when they see you they will give you that "awww so sweeet" expression but it's all pity and we don't want pity damnit! We wanted friendship or maybe something more but at least friendship if nothing else but when it gets wierd like that we don't get treated like a friend at all! We get treated like a fiend, a social leper, a thing of charity. She feels she has to be "nice" to us, maybe she feels bad that he feels it for her and she doesn't feel it back. But the "niceness" won't be genuine. It will taper off and be meaningless and empty after it's all said and done. And what COULD have been a salvaged friendship gets horribly botched.

And yall wonder why we are hesitant to say "I love you" for the first time? Because it's rarely a win-win situation for us if she doesn't feel the same way, you don't get to run or pass for a touchdown. You don't even get to kick a field goal, or punt or anything. Game over man. Game over! Lol. For those that don't get the metaphor, what I mean is, the friendship may be toast if you catch feelings and profess them and she doesn't feel the same way. It's not like you can say "I love you" and if she's not feeling it, yall can just go back to the way things were before you said it. She's going to get hyper-self conscious about the fact that you love her. That's going to make her uncomfortable because this guy who she has no feelings for loves her. And let's just say that when women get uncomfortable like that, they act the way they act and they do what they do (it's all across the board, who knows?). Game over man. lol. Any way you slice it, shit ain't going to be handled too well in most cases. So what's a guy to do in that situation? We end up feeling like we should have kept our mouth shut, but if we did that we'd be punking out for not saying how we really feel. Grrrrr.

Ali -

Either way, guys feel like that they can't win one way or the other.

>>The more you act "sweet" the more we become "Bertha the Hirsuiteous" with an attitude and what you men call "evil".<<

wow, I don't think all women feel this way. Do they?

Ali, I love that way you catch & express the plays in the game.

You seem to have a thing for smoothing out stuff some people find much more difficult and extremely frustrating, as they go from one thing to another, wondering if they did this or that wrong or right way. When in actuality, it doesn't have to be "that serious." See, what I vibe off are your speaking words, noting you too are observant & intuitive. I mean you sharply comprehend subtle messages in various writing, which I feel helps people even more to heave a thumbs up to what you say when you are on give back. Now what I like to do is read and sit back often watching, while going with the flow of relationships. But primary in a lot of what you say, that I see, is right along with a person's getting comfortable with his place in the world and just walking proudly -- "truly" doing so.

And for that individual, there're no tricks to be played on him if he's looking out for number one, whether someone else too is whom he's chosen as a priority. This before he learns through it all that, if he can live with himself, he be a'ight. That's what matters most -- take care of thineself, then you can take care of others.

So like I say, I feel what you feedin' folks 'round here lotta times, and I cut a grin, applauding you for just breaking things down in simple English to the people that read this highly interesting, comical stuff. Peace.

Hi, nice open minded comment, I'm English from Liverpool. muffinern1@yahoo.co.uk, would like to correspond with you.

Men are visual and women are mental. Men get stupid around a pretty girl. Women get stupid around a guy who makes her "feel". Bad, nice, rich, poor it does not matter. You turn on all the switches to make a woman "feel" and your golden. If a woman says she wants all the stuff about independent guy that she's lying. She stated "decent living" that screams wanting a rich guy. Some women get security and gold digging mixed up. Women don't say what they really want and most of the time men only want sex. Wanting the man to make all the plans is just a cop out. She doesn't want to be responsible if the date goes bad. Plain and simple. She has been divorced and engaged twice. Sounds like she needs to be the adult and stop wanting to play house.

Any women who talks about that a man should make a decent living and shoud drive a car and be able to live on his own and survive, to me, the"shoulds" sounds to me controlling. A women should never tell a man what he should or shouldn't have. I think this women wants a guy to be similar like her. Reading her post reminds me of this girl who I use to date, which Ireally liked her and she liked me. We connected, but one day she questioned me why I hadn't taken out the trash when she asked. I was very busy that day at work and was very exhausted and I was going to do it early in the morning. She yelled at me asking me that I should have thought about it regardelss becasue its was something that I asked. I was like"Are you kidding me? your yelling at me over stupid trash" I guess I reallly never picked up on the questioning before, but for some odd reason it jumped out me that day. She was beautiful and very attractive, but for me, I lost complete attraction for her that day. I tried to put it behind me the days following, but i couldn't. I loved her so much, and I didnt find out about 6 months later that her last boyfriend, would be lazy and never do anything for her when she asked. He didnt treat her very well and was what you call egotistic. So she left him and then she met me and I treated her like I would treat any women, with respect. I would hold the doors for her, the car door and all of that good stuff. Its funny that her mom and dad loved me and thought I was the perfect guy for her. What her parents didnt know was that she had inner issues with control. She always had to be in control,becasue of her last relationship. She came to terms and told me this. That she never met anyone like me before and that she sometimes felt awkward when I was doing all of those nice things for her because she was never use to it and she never knew how to respond or give back. All I wanted from her was to notice and praise me when I do good things. She said "Oh,I know I never really gave you much credit for all of the good things I have done for her. Now I never never expect anything in return. I let the women choose to feel the need to respond and do whatever to make me happy. I would never a contorl a womens feelings. I go off by what tells me on how she feels. I never told her what I expected, becasue I knew that would be too much to ask, and that would be controling.

• It all started when we started to have serious talks. like I love you and Imiss you everything that you want to hea from one another. I guess it got boring for herto hear it all of the time. We did talk about alot of other thngs, but I always thrown a reminder here and there.Iloved every minute o it. Very confusing. You see everything I said and done I loved to do beacue It made me feel good doing it. Regardless how it would make her feel. I just flet at the time that I already knew so you she would apprecite it and love me more. If she never told me how what Iwas doing made her feel awkward in the beginging, I would have stepped back and gave her space. I love to love and give to others. Most women dont understand that. If women let guys be themselves and accept them like guys accpet women for who they are and not what they looked like or just to get them in the sack then thats irrational. You dont go out with a girl just for sex. For me its a connection. Having that connection with a women your with is alot better then the feeling of sex. Sex is a great feelin, im not going to lie. The girl I was with had self esteem issues annd control issues that I never knew about. Sucks not to know until later on after I poured my heart to her and gave her my time. We dont talk much anymore. We went are seperate ways and never spoke to one another. She didnt like anyone else during our realtionship(at least I dont think.and I was worried about her dating another guy. ( I think now she is with someone which is what I heard and i heard he is a jerkl!). She was a sweetheart and it was inside that Isaw is what I was atracted to her. I saw potential. I never saw the self esteem issues or the questoning. I just did the same thing everytime. SHe had a bad day, I would give her flowers, I did what I thought would make her happy. C'mon Imean i never knew until 6 months the truth, how was I supposed to know. I guess me accepting the potential and bypassing the behaviors is not good enough, but Inever tried to change her! No guy should. Guys should be just themselve at all times. I also learned that if something doenst work fix it, and never tell her about it, or else she will expect it. What do you all think about this?

Jason - Once a relationship is over, cut that person out of your life. It is a waste of time and energy to resurrect a relationship that is already dead, and there is no point in trying to salvage a friendship. Besides, your ex would definitely be a lousy friend, as are most ex-lovers.

Jason, if you had 5 women that you know you could go out with and have sex with right now, would you want this woman the same way? Most likely not. Don't get hung up on one girl. Get to know many women so when one drops out or flakes you will have another to be with. A man can not try and "Fix" a womans problems. You just need to listen. She does not want you to fix anything. She just wants you to listen her and understand how she is feeling. It's very simple. Women have a huge pile of emotions that need to get out. Don't be her nice guy emotional crutch. Just hear her out and let it pass. Trying to fix her problems tells her you are weak and needy. It's not logical, but that's how it is.

Woman, you said that perfectly. Could not have said it better. Its what i have advocated for ages and tell all my wussy guys friends to try and figure out. Its what people are taught in dating programs and it is exactly how the game works!

The difference between a player and a guy that cant figure out to get a date with a decent women is CONTROL. Women while sometimes they dont like to admit it, DONT like being in control of their man. They attempt to control him, they challenge him, they test him. And as soon as he loses a battle, well the war is OVER and shes on the next guy that will give her what she wants to find in a man.

We want someone who has his own opinion! Someone who has great self respect for themselves and therefore the people around them. We want guys to make decisions for US! We want you to be the MAN!

If you want to know what creates killer attraction, then its THAT. Being a confident, funny and in control man, will pretty much help you get any chick that you have the hots for.

Hot Alpha Female

http://www.hotalphafemale.blogspot.com

Dont worry guys, when judgment day comes ( when heaven invades earth ) everything will be put right. The devil has misguided mankind for years and years. A few decades ago most women would date a nice guy, but now it has all changed. It all seems to be down to society. Everything is corrupt and peoples way of thinking is all wrong. But as far as I know when Jesus was on the earth he predicted thats how the world would be. People change with time, and whats acceptable today wasn't acceptable decades ago. But on judgment day, all the good people will have eternal life in a perfect world and all the wrong people will have to suffer hell. I advise people to get the book called " 23 minutes in hell " Trust me people, one day us nice guys will have our justice.

HotAlphaFemale that doesn't explain why women go for players and bad boys who behave badly instead of real men who have confidence and do their own thing.

Bad boys don't tend to give a shit about too much, even the women they sleep with. They do what they want and they don't care about how it affects someone else. They don't care who else gets hurt they just care about getting what they want. This may APPEAR to the untrained eye as confidence but really it is just arrogance and selfishness. How is it that so many women overlook this attitude and any accompanying bad behavior and pass over decent men to be with the players (knowing what they are) and then turn around and try to act like they were fooled?

If you dismiss guys who care about you to instead deal with guys who could care less, then you have chosen unwisely and the fallout is in part due to your error in judgement.

I am sure some women will defend their choices tooth and nail even when it causes them misery and heartbreak over and over again but smarter women will make the adjustment before they wind up with an untreatable STD or infertility or wind up single mothers.

Sometimes, Ali, making that adjustment means being alone.

If a woman isn't classed as a mainstream 8+ then men are not beating down her door to get next to her...not even the supposed "nice" ones. A good woman or good man with no history of jerk or hoe addiction will find it much more easy to hold out and wait for someone worth living for and dying beside, than someone who is used to taking the easier road. I see it around me all the time.

I actually get to the point of enjoying my me-time. Some women never do, especially when they're over 30 and single. It's like they're in a rush to get someone, anyone next to them, just to have someone there...and predators smell the desperation.

When my blue moons would come around, I knew what I was after, and that was basically just the sex. It wasn't difficult to find someone for that, but I knew not to expect anything else (although that was more about the situations than the people. Even just for sex, I was looking harder at the dude with the bulging pocket protector than the one with the bulge in his pants). Some women insist on expecting guys who are nowadays usually honest enough to admit that they're just in it for the sex, to suddenly change.

One reason I don't have many female friends is because too many of them are misery chasers. The few I do have aren't into all that drama.

Well in the grand scheme of things, maybe being alone is better than getting burned by players, the same kind of guy these women are clamoring for.

If they say "we don't want a sweet, nice shy guy", then I don't think they should use those kinds of guys as shoulders to cry on once they get hurt by some jerk either. They can go lick their wounds with their bad boys. Ooops wait actually they can't do that because bad boys don't want to hear it unless listening to your sorrow is their way into your panties. When you know there are sharks in the water, you must assume responsibility for all risks and damages if you go jumping in.

These so called dating experts are basically trying to justify why women go for the sharks, and telling men they should be more like sharks to appease the women rather than counseling the women on the wisdom (or lack of) in diving into troubled waters.

Excuse me while I go puke.