Usually I end up leaving because there's no animal attraction. 271

What is the likelihood that Ann would even want to salvage a friendship?

I don't know...depends on how truly passionate she is about life I guess.

Just because a guy isn't ready to be a husband doesn't mean he can't be a good friend. Besides, who's to say what can happen in the next few years?

Love isn't something that goes away if it's real. If it gets purified with the removal of as much ego as possible, then it might become stronger if they weather the storm and salvage what remains of their connection.

I'm still friends with alot of guys who opted out. Some of them have tried to make a comeback, but the time apart gave me time to figure out why it shouldn't have been romantic in the first place.

Maybe one of these times one will come back and I'll actually let him in.

Mamasan -

More often than not, the moment that a guy becomes a good friend is the moment that he is no longer considered boyfriend or husband material.

That may be another good reason to become friends.

It's better than holding onto a romantic illusion that didn't work out.

If you just break it off then your last memory of them is goodbye to you instead of let's say, watching them get shut down by someone else, or shaking your finger at them for the way they shut down or broke up with someone else.

When you see how someone operates, if they're relatively decent, it makes you not take it as personally. You get to see either their self sabotaging tendencies or the life circumstances that led them to breaking up with you. It's easier to really let go.

If they're stupid, then you get to study their M.O. and know better what to look out for next time.

If I hadn't stayed friends with my wash-outs when I could, I'd have never figured out the traditional or primal digression thing with when sex is okay.

Before, I thought I was being more progressive and less hypocritical, but I had to realize that my ideals while appreciated, don't really work well in actual dating strategy.

For a guy though, staying friends doesn't put you in the non romantic category unless you are the free milk cow type. There should be a clear division between what you'll do for someone who's just a friend, and what you'll do for a girlfriend.

Maintain your masculine mystique...Yes, there is one.

Mamasan -

It's important to keep in mind, that if a guy remains friends with a woman that he was interested in, then those feelings may be dormant for a while but will eventually come back and drive him to a breakdown. That's why a guy doesn't want to take the chance in becoming friends with her.

That kind of depends on why the guy was attracted to her in the first place, and whether or not he really does move on with his life. If you roll it back to a friendship for real, then you're free to see other people. Do that.

When you want someone who doesn't want you, you have to be really aggressive with yourself about letting go. Do whatever needs to be done to get the idea that something could have come of it out of your head.

If that means that you need to be away from them, so be it...but I'm just saying that at least sometimes it's worth it to stay friends.

You know, if you do have to spend some time away, sometimes it helps you both if you tell them exactly why. Sometimes women use men because that's what they're trained to do...not because they really have malicious intent.

Remember that we're taught from puberty and some before, that we can get more out of men by being flirtatious. We're also taught that it's something like winning the lottery for a guy to really have feelings for us if we don't look like models or something...took me years to get over that myth.

We're taught to appeal to men's sexuality since it's very difficult to appeal to your hearts. Sometimes we don't think that perhaps while doing one, we're also doing the other.

I think if more women knew that men can be sensitive without being wusses or Gay, then they would be more careful.

On the other hand, some women who know this still use men on purpose.

Either way, if you don't stick around or at least return when you've got your feelings under control, you might not get to see what was really going on.

For me, salvaging friendships works because I have this sort of survival policy about not letting punani interfere with friendships...even if it's mine.

...but that's probably also why I don't flirt with or shag guys I'm not really interested in as romantic partners.

But another thing that needs to be understood is that if a woman rejects a man or breaks up with him and a friendship develops, then there is a strong likelihood that she will hold over him the rejection or the break up and remind him of it every once in awhile. This is the most likely scenario if they remain friends. Doesn't sound like a good situation to be in if you were rejected or dumped.

Well, someone like that isn't a very good friend.

By the same, as the one who was dumped, if they change their mind at some point, you could hold their having dumped you in the past against them. It's going to be harder for you to fight the temptation to wave your new relationships and successes over their heads than it is for them to avoid holding their rejection of you over your head.

They might forget their reason for rejecting you. You won't ever forget having been rejected.

Right now, there are two male friends in my life who opted out, and tried to get back into my romantic consideration. One of them knows he has no chance, and has accepted it. The other isn't taking it very well. He thinks that maybe if I would forgive him, he might have a chance.

...but the thing is, there was nothing to forgive. I don't need to forgive someone for not loving me. It's just a fact of life that he didn't, and I accepted this and got over it.

It's easier for me now though, than it was back when I was still recovering from thought police parents.

When you grow up in a situation where disagreement is equated with rejection, the lines get blurred. Folks start thinking of love in terms of general worthiness, when it's not about that at all.

Mating and living together...investing time, and committing aren't even about general worthiness. It's about how much you are worth to each other as two people. It doesn't need to involve your ego really.

So long as you know what you're worth, the pain of rejection is minimized on the ego front. Then you can focus on the sentimental factors...the disappointment and loss of the dream.

Own that, and deal with it head on. One of my ways of getting through it is writing. I also have a punching bag. Talking with friends is also a major help.

Then when or if I have to face the person who rejected me, I've already expressed my feelings somewhere, and I can make a fresh start with them.

The only problem for me I guess is that I have a very hard time with back tracking. When I've gotten over someone, it almost doesn't even matter how I feel about them. I won't go back in to be hurt by them again.

I mean...I've tried to, but something is always missing. It's like I go mechanical or something. I just don't feel like I can trust them, so I can't really open up with them.

...and having been through that a few times, it makes it easier to be their friend-just-friend. I'm fairly sure that even if I did have another chance, I wouldn't take it.

"So long as you know what you're worth, the pain of rejection is minimized on the ego front. Then you can focus on the sentimental factors...the disappointment and loss of the dream. "

Mamasan:

Good point sometimes its best to leave the table...especially if someone is undecided about a relationship in the first place. Chances are a few months here and there will not make a difference in thier feelings. Relationships should be all or nothing...you either care about someone or you dont...

Relationships should not be...well i kinda, sorta, maybe want to possibly see you this weekend, if its between the hours of such and such. If someone is thinking along these terms he might be have a commitment phobia, or perhaps they are only looking for the comfort and convenience and not permanence.

Going back and forth in a on/again off/again relationship could do more harm than good.

Mikki, you're right. Honorable people handle their affairs with dignity and decisiveness.

I've seen many kinds of romantic relationships. The the ones that worked either long term with amicable parting or for life were the ones in which the people involved were committed to each other, with the meaning of commitment being more than a mere territorial marker.

One thing the serious commitment oriented person has to realize before they even start dating is that not everyone is capable of this. Sometimes folks are badly misinformed in their teens from a mentality that comes from way back in the day when marrying was crucial to survival. These days many cultures are still of that mentality, and are still arranging and pressuring.

There are however, some major differences between now and 2000+ years ago, when most of our value and belief systems were invented.

One major issue is that humanity is overpopulated. Truthfully, not everyone deserves a mate, and not everyone deserves to breed. This is nature, and we're not smarter than nature.

Allowing non nurturing people the privilege of romantic relationships is not only painful to the individual, it is non sustainable.

I daresay that part of the reason it hurts so much to be fooled by such people is because our instinctive drive to nurture is at that moment in conflict with our very likely instinctive revulsion against the substandard. There is a particular shame and self loathing that comes from being suckered in that particular way.

...and yes, whenever I've said this offline, some of the "audience" begins to look at me with horror.

...but the minds of at least a quarter of their minds turn back to that potential who was supposed to call them and didn't, who they're thinking about calling to see what's up; their last partner who left them and took half, or who was a no count trifling player/hoe...

Someone who doesn't take romantic relationships seriously shouldn't be viewed as a less worthy human being. They should just be viewed as not a worthy partner for someone who does take them seriously. Those people should be honest with themselves and others, and stick to their own kind...and hopefully not procreate.

So really, the loss of that kind of person should be celebrated, and not mourned, as soon as one gets over the sentimental attachment.

In the grand scheme of things, we don't know whether or not a person doesn't take romantic relationships seriously or just didn't take us in particular seriously. The individual might be broken, or maybe you just aren't right for them.

Either way, someone who doesn't take you seriously doesn't deserve the privilege of your company above platonic friendship. If you're the merciful and horny type, you might consider using them for sex since that's all they're offering, but to me, that seems an incredible waste of time and risk.

When I was younger, and I (thought I) had that kind of time, I did it, but I wouldn't get my head messed up about it. I didn't and don't believe anyone is serious until there's been sufficient time and circumstance for them to prove it.

...and if they opt out, then I have to handle my feelings and just move on.

Mamasan -

I want to ask you this:

If a woman cheats on her boyfriend and stays with the lover that she cheated with, then is it possible for the cheater and the wronged partner to become friends? Or should the boyfriend sever all ties?

Ouch. One could argue that the cheater wasn't a friend in the first place, or they wouldn't have done something so destructive to the relationship/friendship.

Ali -

Damn right.

It's possible that the guys could become friends, but I wouldn't say what either should do for certain. It's between them.

There's a difference between being someone's friend and trying to be their friend. You shouldn't try too hard to be anybody's friend if it isn't based on love for them. If it's just to be diplomatic, that's not a very good reason.

If you love someone and they love you, it's just like in a romance. You can probably work things out if you both want to.

If you don't love them, you're better off just letting things fall where they are.

This is why I say salvage a friendship rather than try to be friends with them. If there's nothing there to salvage, then cut your losses.

Do not blame yourself. We all want to believe in love when it happens to us. Because it feels so good and it is so hard to find.

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