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He's Just Not That Into You! 2648
After a magical first date, Susan was so sure that she would hear from Stephen again that she even boasted to friends that she'd met "the one."
Two agonizing weeks later, she was shocked that she never did.
"Maybe he got back together with his ex," one friend piped in. "Maybe he was too intimidated by you," another said. "Maybe you should call him," offered another. "Maybe he's gay," suggested yet another.
Or maybe ... he's just not that into you. Sure, these words sound harsh, but according to a best-selling new dating book, these six words can save women like Susan from a lifetime of heartache and stress.
Ever since talk show host Oprah Winfrey featured the book, He's Just Not That Into You, on an episode of the Oprah show, it's been flying off of book shelves and racing up the best-seller list. Its contents are discussed by single women and their dating friends everywhere. Written by former Sex and the City writer Greg Behrendt and Liz Tuccillo, this book debunks many of the myths that women create about men and dating.
The bottom line is that men are not complicated and there are no mixed messages. If he doesn't ask you out, call you soon after a date, or want to come inside with you after a date, then he's just not that into you.
This new catchphrase actually started on an episode of Sex and the City when Miranda (played by actress Cynthia Nixon) tells her friends that her latest crush ended their last date with two kisses at her door but declined an invitation inside. His reason: He said had an early morning appointment. Reasonable, said her friends, but then the only male at the table said ... "He's just not that into you."
The Truth Shall Set You Free?
"Coming up with reasons that he might not have called that are not critical of you is a natural defense mechanism," says New York City psychoanalyst Gail Saltz, MD, author of Becoming Real: Defeating the Stories We Tell Ourselves That Hold Us Back.
Such defenses serve a positive and a negative function, she says. "They can keep us from being overwhelmed by negative emotions, but if you are always in denial and your head is in the sand, that's not useful either because it keeps you holding onto a relationship where there is none," she tells WebMD.
"Hearing the words 'he's not that into you' are painful because it's like 'what's wrong with me?'" she says. But, Saltz notes, it's not always that simple. "Sometimes there is something going on that is not about you," she says. "The possibilities are endless and this book is popular because usually we don't like to talk about the possibility that you are not the one."
The growth and popularity of Internet dating services may have fueled the need for such advice.
"The Internet and the emailing that goes on before the first date creates the illusion that you know the person and when they don't call you back, it seems more mystifying, but you really don't know each other at all," Saltz says.
Next: 'He's Just Not That Into You' Excuses
People in Glass Houses Shouldn't Throw Stones
Friends create, analyze, and reinforce the excuses and reasons that women come up with because it could just as easily be them with this dating dilemma. "Everyone identifies with the victim, so to speak, and hopes that when they are in these same shoes, their friends can also think of reasons that he has not called," she says.
But "if you have a friend who can't see the writing on the wall and as a result they are not out looking for next Mr. Right then [being honest] would be doing the person a favor," she says.
"It's all a matter of degree and there are also ways to wake someone up, but spare their feelings," she says. "Try saying 'you are terrific, he doesn't t know what he is missing,' because there are ways to be supportive, but still make it clear that they are hanging on to a pipe dream."
'He's Just Not That Into You' Excuses
Making excuses can be counterproductive outside of the dating world as well, she says.
"Hopefully your spouse should be able to say to you, 'I feel like we need to be having sex more often' without you saying, 'Of course, he wants more sex. He always wants sex. He is a sex maniac!'" she says. "You need to be able to hear the other person, consider what they are saying, and look at what you are doing to grow, change, and compromise," she says.
Or "if your boss is trying to tell you that you are not doing a good job and you walk around saying 'he has a problem' or 'she just doesn't like men,' it's not productive," she says. "You need to be able to hear criticism, obviously if it is constructive criticism, that's better."
Men's Take on Dating
"I can understand why women feel empowered by this book," says Terrence Real, founder of the Relational Recovery Institute in Cambridge, Mass., and author of several books on male emotional health including, How Can I get Through to You: Closing the Intimacy Gap Between Men and Women.
"The book is implicitly teaching women to have good psychological boundaries, meaning that if he's just not that into you, it's not your problem, it's his and you need to deal with the fact that for whatever the reason this guy is not interested in a relationship with you," he says.
"If you are on your hands and knees with a magnifying glass looking for a needle in a haystack as to why he stopped pursuing you, you're nuts. It just didn't click, which is fine," Real says. "Maybe he doesn't like redheads or maybe you have a broad face like his mother or maybe you don't have a broad face like his mother."
It may be an intimacy issue on his part, Real says.
"The kind of guy that has trouble with intimacy is love-avoidant," he says. "A man who has been wounded in his childhood by family and culture and can't distinguish between being close to someone and being eaten up alive is love-avoidant, " Real says.
"If there is a history of enmeshment with one of the parents, often the mother, in which the man was used as a hero child, performer, confidant, or the baby, then the relationship with a parent was one in which the child was there to service the parent's needs, not the other way around," he says. "That's what they feel will happen to them and are basically intimacy-phobic."
But, he cautions, don't throw out the baby with the bath water. "If you spent the whole date talking about yourself or not talking about yourself or were excessive and extreme in another way and bet it was a real-turn off, look at it and do better next time."
This is a great article and I think it's also a must-read for every woman.
It will sure save a lot or time and heartbreak for us to accept that men
are not even slightly complicated and we should stop agonising and see that
the simplest explanation will usually be the correct one...he's just not
into you. Beautiful.
Check out www.breakupsurvivor.com for some advice on women who have
recently been dumped. I think this site is the least depressing one i've
found out there.
Ditra
Some men are that complicated. the amn I'm attracted to blows hot an dcold,
blatantly hints he wants to be intimate with me, then shuts the door in my
face when I respond. Yet he sshows signs of jealousy about where I'm going,
who I'm seeing etc. He brings up intimate references to our private jokes,
confides in me about business problems, asks my advice and opinions on
things going on in his life, shows interest and asks questions about my
life and family, thinks I'm beautiful, laughs at all my jokes, but just
won't take that first step and actually go on a date with me. He shows
anxiety if he hasn't seen me for a week or so, such as over Xmas. Does all
thsi mean he is not into me? I ahve read the book but do not agree with
some of it.
Juanita Richards [ja.richards@clear.net.nz]
I would like to hear someone's answer to Juanita's entry. I think it is
hard to understand myself. A man's point of view would be highly
appreciated here!
... honestly, juanita, he looks like someone who is just wasting your
time..
cher
are you asking me, sus, to explain more my comment? i will be very
honest...it appears to me that the guy has nothing much to offer.. he
seemed to be enjoying juanita's company. but what is he doing for juanita?
everything is for himself.. i suggest that juanita stops doing something
for that guy and let's see how he will behave. he doesnt seem to have any
plans at all for juanita. he has nothing to offer. juanita seems to be a
more interesting person than he is.
i dont know if he is into juanita. he looks like he likes her because of what she could offer to her. but with all honesty, i think juanita deserves a much better guy. someone with a plan. someone who is interested in making juanita happy. i think this guy is not worth waiting for..
cher
Too many guys are twisted and dysfunctional due to their baggage. They
received their baggage while growing up. It's very dependent on how their
parents treated them and how their parents showed love for each other. They
will imitate their parent’s behavior unconsciously. Very few men have
escaped being twisted to a certain extent in our modern society.
Caution - too many men can hide their dysfunctional characteristics until a
romance has progressed to a deeper level. Then all the garbage appears out
of seemingly nowhere.
PS-women carry too much baggage too.
"..he doesnt seem to have any plans at all for juanita..."
read hooup
culture: http://www.hookupculture.com/
which might explain more about
this.
it would help us greatly if men would share to us how they behave when they
are truly serious and in love with a woman..
what do you do for a woman when you are sincerely in love with her?
cher
Hi Cher - excellent question -I can only speak for myself. It's like the
Kenny Rogers song, "She Believes In Me." I'd love a woman till my dying day
if she would only validate me as someone of worth. It's rare for a man to
get true validation from a woman. They usually just criticize. I don’t know
what other men want.
very interesting, dave.. thanks for your point of view.. :)
cher
Host: have seen critical men of women as well. The women probably take it
differently though than the males. But nobody likes to be criticized. I
liked what Rex wrote somewhere on the blog: that he appreciates a critic
that will help him improve. This is the same for me. I love it when I get
positive critic that will allow me to improve. Unfortunately not many
people can think this far to understand the value of positive critics
(especially a man often). Companies like the globally leading McKinsey base
their employee growth on open communication and continuous open and
constructive feedback/critic. Otherwise we are not made aware of ourselves.
On the other hand, negative critic is destructive, and is a sign that the 2
partners are either not made for each other or should go counselling to dig
out the anger feelings for each other beneath the surface.
Sus
"It's rare for a man to get true validation from a woman"
Right on!!! That's all we want. For us to believe them - for woman to believe IN us!
Kenny was lucky.
Bob [wwlidman@juno.com]
so what are the signs that tells us that you are sincerely in love with
us?
cher
"I'd love a woman till my dying day if she would only validate me as
someone of worth." That doesn't mean she has to kiss up to me. Every person
has intrinsic human worth and sometimes they need to be reminded of that.
Especially by someone they love.
so what are the signs that tells us that you are sincerely in love with us?
When we mirror your validation. The devotion will be obvious.
Great question. Wow! Listening. Being there. SHOWING that we care.
Respecting your space. Holding you when your not feeling well or
blue/wheepy. Understanding your many moods - Like my gal I call Business
----- when she is in her business mode/male side, her femine side (which I
try to bring out more of), + the other ones. Helping out without being
asked - little things. REMEMBERING details!!!! and telling details!!!!
Trusting.
Any help guys???? I am close???
Bob [wwlidman@juno.com]
listening to you too, bob.. keenly listening.. thanks for sharing!
:)
cher
It is funny how all this stuff is obvious in a way..yet we often dont
consciously think of it! I think there are certain male/female
characteristics..yet let's be careful..some have been attached based on the
culture we grew up in. If you travel a bit you will realize that a western
woman that is very feminine will look masculine let's say in comparison to
a 3rd world woman. Yet in her world she is more attractive than the weak
dependent woman. This is what I have heard many guys say. Am I off track
with the guys here?
Sus
that is true,sus, what is attractive to a man changes from culture to
culture. the definition of femininity is also different from every culture.
just like what i have said before, what maybe perceived as boring or
weakness in one country maybe perceived as interesting and strength in
another country.. however there seems to be a common ground here, whether
in europe, america, or asia. men are attracted to those women who believes
in them.. those who respect their worth as a man.
cher
Cher: glad you said that. It was my conclusion here as well and you
confirmed it.
Sus
so what do you think? do you think the guy that juanita is seeing *read
above* is sincerely in love with her or just wasting her time? i honestly
perseive that he is just wasting juanita's precious time..
do you have a different point of view, guys?
cher
I think Juanita just needs to change a couple of her tactics. Do something
different. Maybe LESS available, not return calls right away etc.
I think Juanita needs to raise his interest level.
Bob [wwlidman@juno.com]
oh, juanita.. bob just said a very interesting comment.. wish you are
here..
paging juanita! :)
cher
"so what are the signs that tells us that you are sincerely in love with
us? When we mirror your validation. The devotion will be obvious."
how come i missed reading this yesterday??
im touched, dave.. so that's how men love... with devotion.
cher
"I think Juanita just needs to change a couple of her tactics. Do something
different. Maybe LESS available, not return calls right away etc.
I
think Juanita needs to raise his interest level."
I think Bob is hitting
the target on this one. It's how Juanita behaves towards him that will make
all the difference.
dave, can we have a separate topic about... like what do men do for a woman
when he is in love? or how do men behave when they love a woman? your
researches too about how men express their love will be tremendously
appreciated! :) :) :)
im very sure many women would love to read that. and it would really be a GREAT help especially for us who've got a difficult time deciphering the mysterious behavior of men.
thanks, dave! you've been such a big help to me!
:) :) :)
cher
Agreed with all the above. Well today both males and females want to feel
validated I think. It is an "ego era" anyways for men and females alike.
But I have noticed (and Bob confirmed this to me) that men have it easier
in the beginning to take it easy, whilst women gain their power in a
relationship over time. I have seen this over and over again. I believe men
are afraid of committing for this very reason: they sense that in the
beginning they can control their feelings, whereas as time goes by they
sort of get "hooked" to the woman and relationship and feel "engulfed" by
the woman's personality and emotional dependance. Sound familiar to
anyone?
...wish men would be more open with their feelings though. It
would make life easier.
Sus
Due to men's fragility, there is also a saying that goes: "men are what you
make them to be". You tell him he is nice, he'll be nice; you tell him he
is a jerk, he will actually turn into one.
Hocus pocus? Comments
gentlemen?
Sus
Sus, men also wish women would be direct about their feelings and end the
constant testing they put us through. We're wishing against things
ingrained into people. It's best to simply work with (not on, as many women
and men like to do) your significant other in order to make things
work.
Also, men are not dogs/pets/etc. I've seen the above far too many times, and to find women that actually agree with it reflects their view on men's competence, free will, and other traits.
Rex
Rex: you are right. Women (me included) are very distrustful of men. Men
are also distrustful of women. It goes both ways...and it is distructive
you're right.
But don't you find that when either men/women start
showing interest or share feelings, then the vulnerable side is exposed, or
rather one feels defenseless? It is hard to show one's feelings just like
that. Maybe you have a suggestion on how to overcome this?
There is a
missing link in this enigma. We shouldnt show feelings too much, then again
when we do we pay for it dearly.
I am speaking of the initial phase
here...
What you are talking about is probably the actual relationship.
In the case of a relationship you are 100% correct. Indeed, I am one that
expresses those feelings, and when the other doesnt I get put off cause the
relationship crisis/problems are not given a chance to be solved. In this
case, I decide to leave since I am aware that what cannot be solved through
open communication is destined to stay as it is.
Rex Email me if you
prefer. Would love your thoughts.
Sus [blue_goddesss@yahoo.com]
Why do men hide their feelings? First of all, that's a large part of men's
socialization, at least in Western culture. I also believe its part of our
hard wiring. When men reveal their feelings and insecurities women often
feel unsafe with such a soft man and they run away. Therefore men are
reluctant to show feelings, We live in kind of a double standard created by
women although I believe it's an unconscious double standard.
I think women test men continuously to see if he can make them feel safe at
all times. I believe much of this testing is motivated on a subconscious
level. Any thoughts on this one? Anybody?
It's been found that if you treat school children as though they are very
bright they do much better. This was discovered by accident.
"what do you do for a woman when you are sincerely in love with her?" It's
revealed in his behavior. He most often will cherish you and validate you.
He will mirror back your behavior towards him. But don't forget that the
brain neurotransmitter of attraction wear of rather quickly so there has to
be something more to sustain a relationship
Cher asked -"how do men express their love." Well Cher, I can tell you one
way they express their love but I don't think you're going to like it. Men
feel strongly that they're demonstrating love by being the family
breadwinner. He often feels hurt because women (wives) don't see this as an
expression of love in too many cases. She feels he's putting his job before
his family. Nevertheless he feels he's expressing true love.
Cher asked, "what do men do for a woman when he is in love"
This
depends on how long the relationship has progressed, as you already know.
There is a BIG PROBLEM here though. Men constantly live behind their
'Masculine Pretense." It's the 'image' they project to the world to prove
that they're a REAL MAN. For this reason it almost impossible for a man to
let down his guard and show intimacy. In general women want closeness in a
relationship and men want distance. This is one of the most damaging issues
in love relationships and it’s almost impossible to fix. This issue
accounts for a lot of divorce. You can learn all about this in the book:
"Why Men won't Commit
Why it's so hard for men to be intimate and show love.
His emotional
straight jacket.
Speaking for men generally let me say that it isn’t
strictly our fault that we tend to be in the dark about many of our true
feelings. We have been limited by our Masculine Pretense –a pretense that
has been imposed on us since childhood. During childhood we were trained
for worldly success, which required being rational and forceful. We would
become athletes or businessmen, or professionals at something. We were not
encouraged to know ourselves emotionally. In fact, we were taught that
feelings get in the way.
Think about the emotional straightjacket that we men have been placed in. You as a girl were permitted to be indecisive or frightened. If you truly had no experience at something, you were allowed to look inexperienced. If someone criticism hurt you could say so. You could cry if you felt like it. If someone didn’t invite you to a party and you felt bad; you could show it on your face. If someone complements you could glow. You were even encouraged to be emotive. As a woman you were expected to feel things deeply. During these same early years, the man in your life was being sent a very different direction. His goal was to become strong, independent, and not needy. He was taught not to show his emotion, to discount his feelings and "get on with it", to do what had to be done without ever letting joy or dismay absorb him.
From the book: "Why Men won't Commit
oh, dave! thanks for answering all my questions! i appreciate it a lot!
:) :) :)
cher
So cher - now that you have this new knowledge what do you think of men?
Rex "Email me if you prefer. Would love your thoughts." - Hey Rex- we all
appreciate your thoughts too. So don't forget us. :)
Cher - I forgot one very important sign of a man's love for a woman. He
will stand up for her and strive to protect her. Even from verbal attacks.
Sometimes he intervenes too much but his behavior is motivated at a
subconscious level or by his instincts.
I feel sorry for men Host. But guess what..I was also raised to not show
feelings and trained for worldly success and so have some of my girl
friends. Things are changing. It is not easy for us women either.
I
agree on one thing totally and I often get angry with my (whiney, girlish,
virgin at her wedding by the way) mother about this: she has never
understood my father's love and character when he made all the sacrifices
to provide for her, sometimes doing 2 jobs and never asking her to work and
help out. He has never been understood by her and I appreciate all the
burden he had to take with a wife that acted more like a child/ daughter
than a woman/partner. I can see what Host is trying to say perfectly!
Sus
Sus said, "I feel sorry for men Host." - I think feeling ‘sorry’ for a man
is not a useful emotion. It's very important to 'understand' men though and
empathize. If women understand this characteristic in men it might be
useful in improving relationships. The biggest problem men and women have
is true understanding of each other. I know it's my biggest issue. I'm even
trying very hard to understand myself.
Host: um...did you misunderstand the word "to feel sorry for someone" and
take it offensively? My intention was to say that (without citing my
example) often women and men dont understand each other, and probably your
choice of the word "understanding" is more appropriate. To feel sorry for
someone is positive in my view not negative. You sure are defensive.
wow
Sus
Hmmm... a lot of projective thinking around.
Many times men/women
project their own perceptions into others' actions or words and come out
with totally distorted views. I find it always "safer" to focus on an
actual person/message and separate this from my own preconceptions to avoid
misinterpretations.
Sus
No- I just feel that empathy is always better than feeling sorry. Feeling
sorry often implies pity. I feel offended quite often but not in this case
particular instance. :)
"So cher - now that you have this new knowledge what do you think of
men?"
i dont know, dave.. all i know is that men can make me smile.. i admire men's great capacity to love..
it makes me smile to think how much deeply a man loves and how much he wants to give to someone he loves..
suddenly i remember the man who loves me very dearly.. my dad. :)
cher
I got the point that women need to make a man feel validated - but can
anyone explain how to do that? I know it sounds stupid, but i really don;t
know.
TBFL
Hey TBFL "How do I make a man feel validated?" I know it's awful, but never
ask a question that he might interpret as you think he is incompetent.
Example: If he seems lost when driving do not say, "Why don't you stop and
ask directions? He will take this innocent remark as a put down. He thinks
and feels that you are accusing him of being incompetent even though that's
not what you meant at all. See what I mean? Listen to the song, She
believes in me by Kenny Rogers. Does this help?
Are you just saying that i need to question him less and have more faith in
what he is doing on a daily basis? Can you elaborate a little more?
TBFL
Behave as though you have more faith in what he is doing on a daily basis
even if you don't? Questions that aren't out of the ordenary often make him
feel as though you don't trust his judgmenet. I know it's like walking on
eggshells. Two books that will help you with this iisue are written by
Barbara DeAngelis are " What men want women to know" and "What women want
men to know."
"I got the point that women need to make a man feel validated - but can
anyone explain how to do that? I know it sounds stupid, but i really don;t
know."
It's NOT stupid - it's EXTREMELY important! It's the type of questio nwe are all chasing here.
I think not to analyze a man's thinking so much. We men say or do something that's pretty much it - don't read into it so much. And yes! - believe in him! Smile, hug, listen to him as well - let him be when he is quiet/cave period - no questions then!
Bob [wwlidman@juno.com]
"I think not to analyze a man's thinking so much. We men say or do
something that's pretty much it - don't read into it so much. And yes! -
believe in him! Smile, hug, listen to him as well - let him be when he is
quiet/cave period - no questions then!"
Thanks Bob
I am in my first
long relationship - almost a year and i feel like my boyfriend is getting
distant. My friends say it just happens after a while. they stop going out
of their way to impress you. stop romancing you -bringing you flowers ect.
And so i have been complaining a lot saying i wish he would do this ...and
that...Now i just want to make sure im not doing anything to push him away.
i want to make sure he feels validated.
TBFL
Hey TBFL - I suspect he has taken you for granted. You can't allow that
state of mind to continue. He needs to know that there is a chance he can
loose you. There must always be some tension in his mind that you might not
always be available to him. This will create a spark for you to be
re-ignited in him. This is really relationships 101.
TBFL- please read: Passion
Here’s the crux of how and why relationships work or fail. Simply, you can’t appreciate what you take for granted. This in essentially why people, in general, become unhappy in their own lives. They always want more but are never grateful for what they have. And if you are not grateful with what you have, you will begin to take it for granted. And when you do this, you no longer appreciate it. And when you don’t appreciate something it holds no enjoyment for you.
The same holds true for relationships. If someone takes you for granted he or she will not appreciated you and will begin to look for someone else. Similarly, if you went to the doctor and were told that you might lose your hearing, you would probably develop a renewed appreciation for sound.
Our gratitude lies in being reminded that w should not take these things for granted
And you don’t take for granted what you believe can be taken away
from you at any time. Similarly, if the object of your affections is a bit
insecure with the relationship –meaning there is an element of doubt –then
his or her black of confidence will not lead to arrogance and ingratitude.
You must create an element of uncertainty or you will lose the passion that
drives the relationship. .
Since it’s possible for someone to be taken
away from us at any time –by accident, by illness –why do you have to
create more doubt?
If you’re in love, you don’t This is for those who are not yet at that stage, for whom we artificially and temporarily create the same "atmosphere" of uncertainty.
Again, without some doubt there is the feeling that "you will always be there." Then he no longer sees how great you are and loses appreciation for you. He begins to take you for granted and then and the passion dies. But you, in your relationship, can within a second reignite the passion and turn the relationship around by introducing an element of doubt. Passion is extinguished when there is no doubt because when there is no doubt you will be taken for granted. Just as in the previous example of going to the doctor; You never gave your hearing a second thought until you thought that it might not be there. When doubt is introduced into the equation it changes you perspective! I cannot stress this enough: You will be taken for granted and not appreciated and the passion will go out of the relationship if all elements of doubt are removed.
Unfortunately, when we are insecure about a relationship we
harm it further by being clingier because we need reassurance. But in doing
so you reinforce that you are forever his and remove in his mind any doubt
that you might not always be there. And then passion is extinguished. It is
a fact of human nature. But now that you understand you can use it to your
advantage.
Remember that this and other factors discussed here are not ideas or tricks that work sometimes. These are laws that dictate human behavior. If you use them and operate within these parameters you can succeed at gaining complete leverage in any relationship. But finally, make sure that you don’t make the mistake that most do when it comes to…how you make them feel.
If you felt he is pushing away......
Are you too needy - clingy? Too available? Is it too easy for him?
If so - best thing to do is concentrate on work, friends, family, hobbies, school etc.
Is he TOO much of your life?
Goto www.lovetactics.com and read the articles. These AREN'T games!!! The are true Psycological principles people need to mantain attraction.
Consider pulling back a little bit.
I believe you are doing stuff to lower his interest level.
Are you trying to do too much for him??? Too many 'I love you's'?
"And so i have been complaining a lot saying i wish he would do this" - STOP THAT! He SHOULDN'T do it because you ask - he should WANT to do this.
I think you need to change your tactics with him to increase the interest level.
Do you call him and e-mail more than once or twice a day? Stop that! Be more unavailable. Don't always return his call right away. You don't even have to call him every day - make him call you. - This is call the art of him 'MISSING YOU' - every relatonship needs this.
These are things you have to do to keep interest levels up for the rest of your lives. You've gotten too comfortable I bet in the relationship.
You are no longer a challenge.
EVERY ONE WANTS SOMETHING THEY CAN'T HAVE!!! Ok? Don't forget this - he has you.
You are just too availble.
I think you might think validating his is doing even more. Make
Bob [wwlidman@juno.com]
Thanks for all your comments people. The guy I was talking about is a taxi
company owner and I used his services several times a day so I never called
him except on a professional basis. Out of 26 drivers HE always made sure
it was HIM who picke me up. I walked away from his service on New Years Eve
as his beahviour was becoming more and more weird. I am pretty sure now,
thanks to some advice Dave gave me, that this guy has narcissistic
personality disorder. Since I left his service I have been being stalked by
him, and he has some of his drivers roped in as well. This reaction has
confirmed that there is something wrong with the guy. Any normal business
person, on losing a good customer through his own offensive behaviour,
would phone and apologize and try to sort it out, personal relationship or
not. I stuck up for this guy and his comapany against the racist remarks
and behaviour of the other Kiwi taxi companies (he and his drivers are all
Pakistani). They hate these Pakis because they are undercutting them by 20%
in the fares, and just because they are Pakistani. I'm the sort of person
who will always fight for the underdog and I'm a very loyal person, to my
friends, my man, and the various businesses I use. So at a time when he is
fighting this racism (and he'd ben called to a meeting of the Taxi
Federation to answer to "issues", which he confided in me about) he has
alienated their best customer, also at a time when yet another new cab firm
has arrived on the scene - more competition. His behaviour was
unprofessional for one thing. As far as I was concerned we were only
friends, he was the one putting out the attraction vibes (Naricissists do
this to get you hooked then pull back). Because of his confusing behaviour
I left his service once before for 3 months. After that time, he sent his
best friend and most trusted driver to ask me to come back (wouldn't lower
himself to come himself). This guy, who I also knew quite well, was telling
me that my guy was a nice guy who came from a good family, that he ahd
known him all his life and that he would never hurt anyone (his friend
doesn't know him very well or how he behaves alone in the cab with women).
It was as if his friend was putting in a plug for him. I took it at face
value and went backa s a customer. I was very cool thoguh on seeing this
guy again, instinct was telling me to do this. I began to notice things I
hadn't before and his attempted manipulation increased. When I didn't
respond the way he wanted me to he got angrier and more hostile but tried
to hide this with veiled comments and criticisms of someone he hardly knew.
In other words, I had inflicted "narcissistic injury" which makes the
subtle abuse escalate (I was unaware of all this then). My instincts jus
told me not to react with any emotion towardhim, positive or negative. This
reaction turned out to be correct as they draw power from your reactions,
if they can't get it one way they will try another. ANY emotion feeds their
grandiose fantasies about themselves. It was a form of psychologocal
warfare. At the time I met him I hadn't dated for 8 years and was not
looking for a relationship and he knew this, so I was more of a challenge
to him. he knew I was a loner who likes to spend a lot of time alone so he
couldn't use fear of abandonment to control me. They look for oter
weaknesses to exploit.
Nothing worked on me as I ahve had expereince
witht his type before, having been married to a psychopathic naricissist.
The only difference between them is that this one was much more subtle and
instead of violence used very subtle undermining tactics. He will be
getting frantic now that I have not reacted to the stalking, 20 phone calls
a day (all wrong numbers supposedly but all with Paki accents - can't prove
they are not wrong numbers). One turned up on my doorstep on a Saturday
night at midnite, wrong address, can't prove otherwise, but only the cab
drivers know where I live. They follow me around town,a nd I hae seen my
guy looking for me at all the plaes he used to drive me to - the bank, the
post office, the library etc. He followed me to a town 90 mins away where
he had known since before Xmas I was going to be for my daughter to have
medical treatment on that date. We were behind him on the highway all the
way home. If I don't react at all and give him "naricisstic supply" he will
give up and move on to his next potential victim, probably has several
lined up already. They literally cannot exist without this supply.
So ladies, who was it that was saying that it is as simple as that if a guy is not into you? lol
Juanita Richards
Bob & Host:
I dont feel that i am really clingy. I try to do my own
thing now and then. but does this ever end? is there ever a point in a
relationship when you can just be yourself and not play hard to get. i am
in love with him and he says he is with me. so why be unavailable. I admit
i do need to get more of a life an do fun activities on my own. So I will
take your advice and try - but i just want to know if there is ever a point
i can relax and not act like i'd rather do something besides see him?
because the truth is i love being with him.
TBFL
I don't believe in playing games either and if everyome was honset about
what they wanted, expected and needed from the other there would be no need
for games. But people do this out of fear of fejection, or plain
manipulation etc. it is hard to be honest with someone who is playing these
games so our defences go up. But even in the best realtionship where two
people love being together it is healthy to each have your own separate
interests. Even guys I've been crazy about I still enjoy my space. I used
to spend the weekends with one who lived quite far from me, but I loved
getting home on Sunday night or Monday mnorning and getting on with my own
stuff. It made the weekends that much more special when I did see him. he
didn't have a phone so we couldn't phone each other, so sometimes he would
turn up on a week night just to surprise me because he missed me.
Juanita Richards [ja.richards@clear.net.nz]
Unfortunately - no.
"People want what they can't have" - I've learned this the hard way - too many times.
This doesn't mean totally hard to get - just have a life - go out with friends. Do other things. DON'T always do wha the wants to do. DON'T always agree with him.
Sorry about the tough love - but it's true.
More divorce are caused by this than anyting - and actually it's the man that gets lazy and complacent.
It's called being somewhat of a challenge - people always need that tiny little hint that you might leave them.
Hold back on the I love you's, don't return his calls and e-mails right away, DON'T always pick up the phone when he calls
Unfortuantely relationships take WORK. You can't get lazy - lazy in communicating, being a challenge, STAY IN SHAPE etc.
Again - he is not your life - he is part of your life - and the relationship gets longer he slowly becomes more.
You still need to keep a little 'wonder' in your relationship to keep the fires going.
He wants the woman you were when you first met - believe me - try to bring some of her back. The flirty girl, the fun girl, the girl who played hard to get.
These aren't games - it's part of life. Incorpaorate this into your life if you want to keep this guy.
It's called keeping up an interest level. Unfortunately in real life you can't surrender comletely.
Hey this is bad stuff - it's just learning the rules of attraction.
Bob [wwlidman@juno.com]
See in Juanita's post - her relationship worked because of space.
You can't smother the guy/gal - wondering - missing you.
Just learn these little love advice.
In the long run you will be a lot happier and have a much more fulfilling life.
Bob [wwlidman@juno.com]
None of this should be considered games. Whether we like it or not people
get tired of us and take us for granted if there is no doubt that we will
always be available. IT'S HUMAN NATURE AT WORK.
Dave
I'm just not the clingy dependant type. This is not a game or a strategy,
just the way I am. If a man doesn't want to be with me, fine, let him go.
But some men I have known, think that this is a strategy and have said to
my face "I'll have you eating out of the palm of my hand in no time". Well,
they're in for a rude awakening. They get really pissed off when I don't
want to be with THEM all the time. Then they start the pathetic
games
of trying to make me jealous (one used to put empty women's perfume bottles
under the front seat of his car, then bring it out and say "does this
belong to you?" lol). He said to me one day, after I turned down his offer
to live together (after only going out for 3 weeks)that he would have to
move in next door so he could keep an eye on me. Several have said those
exact same words when I refused to move in with them. Even after telling
them right at the start that I would never live with a man again, they just
don't get it and think they can change my mind by trying to make me feel
insecure.
Juanita Richards [ja.richards@clear.net.nz]
TBFL, what would happen if you stop doing something for the relationship?
sometimes we thought we are in a relationship but when we stop doing, the
relationship just dies naturally. it is painful to realize that there's
only one person keeping the relationship alive..
if you stop, you would know the real truth in your relationship. you would know too if your man truly has plans for you... if he truly values you.
cher
Thank you all for your comments. I guess my opinion is that yes in the
Beginning you need to be hard to get - but for yourself not for the other
person. You need to have the confidence to know that someone needs to work
to get your attention.
But after you have been in a relationship for awhile and your in love then you need to stop playing games. Yes you need to do your own thing and have your own life - and enjoy your time apart. But i dont think you need to purposely not answer the phone, or purposely say your busy. Because the truth is, if you have your own life those things will happen naturally.
Also a good friend asked me if i wanted to be with someone that was playing hard to get - and my answer was no. Then she asked if i wanted to marry someone who i had to play hard to get with all the time - and my answer was no. It really is that simple. I dont want to be with a guy who i have to play games with to keep. So if my boyfriend get bored with that too bad - Ill find someone who wont.
Bob - I do
absolutely agree with this, and think everyone - guys and girls needs to be
the fun lighthearted person they were when they first dated.:
"He wants
the woman you were when you first met - believe me - try to bring some of
her back. The flirty girl, the fun girl"
Thanks for the advice!
TBFL
Hey TBFL - Yes -that's really important part of it.
Most of that stuff is not games. It creates attraction, which you want. Some people are just naturals at that.
Even in a long-term relationship - "People want what they can't have" - you need that little bit of mystery - even doing your own thing like going out with friends or joining your own health club.
Saying no to something once in a while works as well. Don't always be agreeable - if you disagree with something - let him know.
Bob
Hey and a lot of the stuff I bring up are just tips - I don't know you or
your exact relationship. I just know what can kill attraction.
Totally surrending to someone kills attraction. Kills marriages.
I want better relationships and I want to know what I do wrong.
Bob [wwlidman@juno.com]
Hey TBFL - these are not games but they are very important things to know
about human nature. Some of the ladies say, "Treat mean, keep keen." Never
ever allow yourself to be taken for granted. The most important thing a
person can do in their life is to develop emotional independence. Not
emotional unavailability like the sexy rebellious men that woman falls for
so often. The slang name for these men is badboy/jerk or rat. He seems very
sexy to most women but he will drop you so fast you won’t know what hit
you. He does not care about women and uses them in a selfish way. He's the
heartbreak waiting to happen.
"Never ever allow yourself to be taken for granted."
Exactly - and that's what I think you did here from the little you have told us.
Be a lady that you're guy would be most proud of....one that if he wasn't careful, might just slip away.
Bob [wwlidman@juno.com]
just its our life its a dependance on what u do every day in which every
step in our sexual intercore can't be not done again as i thought cause it
will make you depressed
tom [ilideninheaven@yahoo.com]
I see much too often men being accused of imitating parent behaviour. Is it
possible that women might have the problems as well. Or is it that you are
born in a jar? Did not you have families? My ex would try to spite me by
telling that I am a mama's boy (in fact I left home at 17) because my
parents call every 2 days, whereas she herself would hate to leave her
parents to live and work with me. Girls should the tittle change to "I
blame my problems to everyone else but
ME?"
Aris [seira270@yahoo.co.uk]
Both men and women's behavior and thinking are greatly influenced by
parents. Most of our mental issues come from our feeling of how much we
were loved, or not loved by our parents.Have you ever watched a child
performing a classroom task, along with other children, while his parents
are watching? The child keeps glancing at his parents to see if he/she is
being validated or not.
Juanita, I faced the same problem as you...he's just not that into us, but
he thinks he can keep us hanging on the sidelines ready for his pickin'
when he feels like it. Don't be there on his shelf with the eager look to
be chosen. Live your own life in your own world - the men should enter that
world and be part of it, NOT be your world itself. They won't make us their
numero uno priority, so why make them yours?
Juanita:
yes.. I came searching for answers when the guy I had a liking for suddenly
backed out. I was shocked at his withdrawal. I haven't been clingy or
anything like that but yeah.. after reading all your comments,I may have
been too available. everything was progressing well over a couple of months
and he started asking me out for quick dinners after church in Sep. He
suddenly just snap out like that in the recent week. I felt kinda confused
and hurt. He shows signs of slight aviodance now. I wonder if someone new
came into the picture. I am rather sad that it's ended like that. He is a
nice guy that I think I can connect with and it's hard for someone like
this to come by. Any advice folks? -Rlz
"Wow! Listening. Being there. SHOWING that we care. Respecting your space.
Holding you when your not feeling well or blue/wheepy. Understanding your
many moods"
Kiki, you'd be surprised...
I think there should be a book titled "Not that into him" Face it as women
we have more opportunities to date, and have intimacy with men, than men do
with women. We are more choosy, picky and selective than men, because we
are able to. Men on the whole are more likely to put their egoes on the
line when approaching a woman they fancy. We women are generally the
pursued while men are the pursuers. Its for this reason that women are so
emotionally confused and wounded by a man who suddenly loses interest
unexpectedly but we do it all the time. We take guys numbers on nights out
only to give them the wrong number in return and laugh about it foolishly
with our friends. Or we even date guys that we don't really fancy because
lets face it its so rare that men actually ask women out on dates these
days that the thought of a nice evening out rather than a night in, in
front of the tv seems inviting but do we reply when that same person wants
another date not always. I think the truth is there is something inbuilt in
humans to want what we can't have, that and a woman's inante ability to
compare hereslf to other women and see faults in herself is probably why
this book has proved very popular. The book and its title is supposedly
meant to stop woman beating themselves up about the man that got a way. The
fact that the man in question may have been run over by a bus which is why
hes never called is never an option. Women should think more like men when
dealing with the opposite sex. An ugly man will look in the mirror and tell
himself he's beautiful, he'll approach a woman and get rejected but will he
cry into his pillow, eat a whole tube of icecream and a box of chocolates
mainly no, instead he will dust the chips off his collar and try again, a
woman should do the same.
Sure, none of us women want to hear the words "He's just not that into
you", but sometimes we just have to face the facts. I, myself, confess
right now that i've had to realize that the man I was trying to have
something with recently was "Just NOT that into me". First I want to start
off saying "DONT WASTE THE PRETTY". This quote from the book "He's just not
that into you" has really made me see the light. I believe it was a Monday
night that my best friend Megan and I stumbled upon the book in Barnes and
Noble. I just flipped open to a page only to discover the quote "DONT WASTE
THE PRETTY". Stop and think about this for a minute. Are you wasting all
that pretty on some loser that wont give you the time of day? Because I
was! And yes ladies it is possible to waste the pretty. Sure most everyone
enjoys a nice chase but when does the chase become too much? I considered
sharing this blog because I decided I was not wasting the pretty anymore.
And guess what girls? YOU DESERVE A PHONE CALL!! Yes, I said it and so did
the book, and you do deserve a man that takes the time to call you no
matter how "Busy" he is. I made the excuse for months saying "Yall he is
just soooo busy he dont have time to call".. HAHAHAHA is all I have to say
to myself on that one. It got to a point where I would call this man
several times a day just to have him ignore my call and I could hear his
voice on the voicemail. WHAT WAS I THINKING? He would go days without
calling and then say "ITS NOT HOLLY'S WORLD, IM BUSY WORKING"!! What a butt
hole.. and I have not called someone a butt hole since 1st grade, but this
guy was the biggest one ever! Another point that "He's just not that into
you" made to me was .."HANGING OUT IS NOT DATING, IF HE'S NOT DATING YOU
THEN HE'S JUST NOT THAT INTO YOU"!! Bingo!! Why didnt I wake up and smell
the "he's just not that into me" pot of coffee he fixed for me. I have to
admit I was very naive in this situation. He would give me a call around
1am to "HANG OUT". He wouldnt even be seen with me in public! I know your
probably saying "What the crap are you thinking Holly"?..but I had it bad
for this guy. I have never made so many excuses before in my life. I know
some of you ladies are not going to admit that your in this situation and
I'm NO Dr. Phil, I just want to share to all of you my story. How could I
have been so blind you ask? Well it wasnt Love thats for sure. In the book
it says.. "No matter how powerful and real your feelings may be for
someone, if that person cannot fully and honestly return them and therfore
actively love you back, these feelings mean nothing". WOW! Deep huh? But
it's true. And sometimes you just have to understand that. So therefore, my
situation was not love.. simply pure infatuation! I only mentioned a few
things ive been through the past couple of months but believe me I could
write my own book on my story. So all if you out there who take the time
and read this, I really hope it helps you in whatever your situation might
be. And go get the book yall. It's worth it.
